Daily Breakfast #269
Today: Reactive and proactive Catholics; Presbyterians and the Our Father in English and Latin; Political correctness or Biblical incorrectness? Captain Picard vs. Captain Janeway; Fast-forwarding on an iPod Shuffle; Windows Vista and WEP encryption; Dag Hammarskjöld and Jimmy Akin.
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Vista is not half bad for me with what I do anyway. I have seen all the bad reports.. now this I gotta hear this one.
Politically Correct or (just) Life Affirming for Women?
I am a cradle Catholic who attended a private Catholic school
for 12 years run by a French order. I graduated HS in the 60’s and college in the 70’s.
The CC has changed quite a lot in the years since I graduated HS.
Thru the years I have talked to many women who went to their parish priests
when they were having problems; some of them were physically abused, others
were emotionally abused. Many were sent back into dangerous marriage situations,
feeling guilty that they had even considered leaving a husband just because he
was drinking and beating her. The CC has often given very bad advice and made
very bad decisions based on the mistaken idea that men and women are not
quite equal. As a result, many of the women who grew up in my generation and before, ended up with
very low self esteem.
In my opinion, leaving the exclusionary word “men” from the Apostle’s Creed is a small positive step
that the CC can easily make in order to make some small amends for the horrific pain that they
have caused women thru the ages. The word “men” is not essential to the validity or meaning of the prayer.
Remember, too, the prayer was written by men at a time in society that was dominated by
male thinking which certainly makes a difference in the wording. How can it not?
I don’t believe that the CC should bow to PC thinking, or any other kind of thinking.
But I do believe that the CC, in it’s thinking, should consider the feelings of all it’s members, and especially
those who could be helped by such a small change, when essentially, nobody is being hurt.
WPA Encryption issue on vista definately not. I use WPA Encryption at home. Get in touch with me I will gladly help
jaym [at] jaymartinez dot com
My family and I are starting to watch Star Trek recently, thanks to the many fun comments I’ve heard on DB and a collection of VHS tapes my dad recorded of the original series when it was on reruns in the 80’s and 90’s.
I hope this isn’t sacrilege, but perhaps my favorite captain/commander to this point (not Star Trek, but similar genre) is Commander Peter Quincy Taggart from the movie Galaxy Quest. That was my kids’ first introducting to a Star Trek-like show and we absolutely love that movie. I love everything about it - the humanity of the characters and fans, the loveable good aliens, the silly bad aliens and their submarine-sandwich-like weapons. It’s a hoot!
Anyway, I really enjoy DB. Thanks for all you do!
I find it annoying when the original texts of the Mass are altered on the fly for whatever reason whether it be political correctness or sensitivity to women. I have read somewhere that the Priest has no right whatsoever to change the words of Mass. There are a handful of places where the Priest has some wiggle room, but the Creed is not one of them.
I think it’s insulting to our intelligence to think that we out in the pews can’t figure out that “man” means “mankind” which means all of us.
Ah, lets just go back to Latin where these issues don’t exist.
Tom from Grand Blanc, MI, USA
@Pat,
I do sympathize, but there’s another problem with dropping “man” from the creed. When we say, “for us and for our salvation,” it might create the impression that we are saying Jesus died for US, the people in the pew, rather than all of sin-damaged creation. Likewise, when we say, “and became A man,” (and most people who drop “man” add “a” in that spot,) ironically, that emphasizes Jesus’s maleness rather that his humanity.
It IS a shame that English doesn’t have gender-neutral language that isn’t awkward, but these changes in the Creed don’t serve truth well.
This is already quite a long comment, but I do want to urge you to go to the US bishops’ site, and search the phrase “domestic violence”. You will find there a STRONG statement that women should NEVER continue to risk their lives to preserve the semblance of an intact home. I’m not denying your friends’ experience, but individual priests may teach things that are WRONG, and it does not mean that the Church is WRONG.
Pray for me, and I will pray for you.
You pronounced Dag Hammarskjöld’s name correctly this time. Very good! I know, Swedish pronunciation is difficult, but you did good!
Regarding the “music issue”, I don’t mind the music on Fridays. I like music in podcasts. I play quite alot of music myself in my own podcast.
@Naomi and Pat
This is not only a Catholic issue, the same thing is visible in other churches also. I’m a presbyterian, but I totally agree with what Fr. Roderick was saying in his podcast.
It’s so easy to judge the Bible with our modern standards. Rather than change ill-understood things, you better explain wat was really meant by, for instance, Paul. His views on women were far ahead of his time indeed!
So don’t judge things with modern standards, try to understand it first.
Thanks for the tip Father. I was just about to go buy a new router! Jay, I am stunned byt the fact that WPA is working for you. I’ll send an e-mail right away. Maybe my parents’ laptop needs an exorcism?
@Pat: I’m sorry to hear about bad decisions having been made in the past, but I can tell you 1 good story. Two good friends of mine went to the church to help with their respective marriages-on-the-rocks and were given great advice ond where helped a tremendous deal.
It is important to remember that in the 1500 or so years that there has been a distinct English language, the original and primary meaning of the word ‘man’ has been a description of the type of being that all of the participants here are, that is, not squirrels or chimpanzees but men. (The other equivalents of man, such as ‘human’ or ‘people’, are all imported.)
It is only in the last few decades under the influence of various misadric groups that the PC assertion has arisen that ‘man’ is exclusionary and not primarily neutral. It is not exclusionary (apart from the squirrels and such) any more than ‘day’ is exclusionary of ‘night’, as day is primarily used to indicate the time from midnight to midnight or sunset to sunset (as in ‘I was in Rome three days.’). It can also be used to indicate the hours of daylight or some other part of the day (as in ‘I worked three days.’).
The word ‘man’ is essential in the creed because it indicates that Jesus became one of our type generally, not that he became male. If he had merely become male, he could have been male of any type, but the creed doesn’t say that. That he was a male man has its consequences (How else could the Church be his bride?), but clearly that isn’t the issue addressed.
Fr. Roderick,
First, I am also not a fan of political correctness being inserted into prayers like the Nicene prayer. My parish has suggested drop the word “men” from the line “For us men….” in the Nicene Creed. I am in favor of having women and men being treated equally - one not is subordinate to the other.
My second point is related to the first, in that you are constantly striving for not political but language correctness in your use of the English language. Stop trying to be so language correct, please. I am in the United States where we spell “color” while the Brits spell it “colour.” What’s the big deal? The Americans don’t have monopoly on language colloquialisms. I laugh each time I hear an American leave a voice message saying you are pronouncing a word wrong. What give Americans, Brits, New Zealanders, or any other group a monopoly on the correct pronunciation? It is silly. There are so many ways to pronounce words because we all have different ethnic and cultural backgrounds and influences. I was taught Mid-western American English, others were taught the Queen’s English. Neither are right and neither are wrong, it is the language of where you are that matters. Otherwise, who is to say the Cockney English isn’t better than Cambridge English –or– Mid-western American English isn’t better than Bostonian English. When you pronounce a word incorrectly or in the way you were taught I still understand your overall message. If others can’t then I say what one of the High School English teachers would say, “Tough Darts,” which he meant to mean get over it and move on.
_______________________
BQuad | pax tecum
BQuad wrote:
Thank you so much for this comment. Sorry, please consider my comment as spam. BQuad wrote exactly what I thought since many months, but I never dared to say… And please, no one should be offended, just think about it…
Fr Roderick,
Please try to keep the music segment in the feedback Friday. Although I fully understand your reasons, I still regret the lost of the daily song. The new segment is a good replacement.
And on pronunciation… I’m also a native Dutch speaker and remember the pronunciation differences we have here in the Netherlands. Can you always understand Erik Hulzebosch? Or what about the difference between Flemish and Dutch (zeker en vast / vast en zeker). And only 20(?) million people speak Dutch. So the differences between the US, the UK and Australia will be even bigger.
I think, BQuad and Christian, that which version of our common language is more correct is not the point, though Fr. Roderick has said that his podcasts (in English) would be primarily in the American variety. On the other hand, Fr. Roderick has said (in essence) that he wanted to sound more like a native speaker; it is generally in that spirit and toward that end that people have contributed their comments. It is, as you suggest, a tricky proposition, as both American English and British English have well-known varieties. On the other hand, both have well-established standard forms in spite of the lack of a formal language ‘institute’ or ‘academy’ on either side as is found in various other languages.
Moreover, especially as English has become the lingua franca for the world (if partly because both Brits and Americans seem incapable of learning other languages), the ability to use (one of) those standards properly, and to understand differences between them, is increasingly important, not less so. (That in spite of what some so-called teachers of English might claim.)
Hi Fr. Roderick,
Completely off topic but I’m just wondering if you got my joost invite
@Andrew: yes, I have, just haven’t had time to install it yet.
Ah, language.
Whether it’s in the Church’s Creed or between speakers in different countries (or here in the US, between regions) there’s always something to disagree about.
Why?
Because language does change and the change is done by people. And while there will always be current standards about the right and wrong ways of writing and speaking such language, this *change* in inevitable!
Y’all should go out and buy a history of linguistics book. Fun stuff…
Hello Everyone,
I have spent most of adult life in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the United Methodist Church. When we say the Lord’s Prayer we will use sin/sinner, debt/debtor, and trespass/those who trespass against us interchangeably. I liked hearing the Latin roots for this prayer. Do you know what the original Greek words were?
As far as political correctness goes. While I never want to offend or exclude anything, I do think PC has gone too far. In the United States we have a “victim” mentality. Everyone is a “victim” it seems.
I have seen two humorous results of this. It’s not politically correct to refer to someone’s skin color, so instead of saying someone is “black” we say they’re “African-American”. We also have an expression “back in the black” meaning out of debt and profitable again. A newspaper had an article where “back in the African-American” appeared throughout.
Another involved the short form of the name Richard, which is Dick. Think Dick Van Dyke. There was a newspaper somewhere that had an article that not only mentioned a man named Dick, but someone with the last name Dickson. That was replaced with “Expletive deleted” across the entire article.
I have to agree with Inge. Domestic abuse is not just a Catholic problem and this is an issue Protestant pastors have dropped the ball on too.
I have some examples, but there’s no point in rehashing these stories.
Father,
PLEASE keep the music Friday with Colin (?) (the guy from Manchester). I LOVED it!
John
What’s the problem with dropping “men” in the creed? It isn’t original anyway as it has been translated from Latin.
In German for example the creed goes “…für uns Menschen und zu unserem Heil” with Menschen meaning men as well as women; humans. If you are so opposed to changing the word “men”, doesn’t that mean that the prayer is prayed in the “wrong” way in German?
Christine
John,
Just keep one thing in mind: both Catholics and Protestants share one important feature: they are both human, they both make mistakes, both laypeople and cleric.
I’m so grateful that God wants to forgive us both.
Sometimes it is hard to distinguish between the belief and the believer. Just because Christians make mistakes, or individual priests/reverends in different churches make mistakes, doesn’t mean the Church in total is wrong…
It’s too easy to blame a church or christianity for mistakes that sinners (you and I) make.
Because, Christine, ‘men’ means primarily, and has always meant primarily, both male and female persons. So the English and German translations agree as they are.
Hi Fr. Roderick,
I only started listening to your podcast very recently. I just bought my first ipod and I’m just slowly learning about podcasts. I LOVE YOUR SHOW. I listen to it every night when I am nursing my 9 month old son to sleep. My 2 year old snuggles beside me as well and asks to borrow one earphone so she can listen as well. Multitasking is every mom’s skill!
Anyway, you mentioned about the Stations of the Cross by the Rosary Army. I tried looking for it, but I can’t seem to locate it on ITunes. Can you also please recommend a wonderful prayer podcast I can listen to? I want to pray together with a podcast whenever I can find time.
Thank you and God Bless!
Charlene
Funny Piture!
Charlene, you can find it here:
http://www.sqpn.com/?p=947
It’s about 5 pages back.
Thanks for the help Hans! Found it! Sorry for being clueless about this. I was looking for it elsewhere!