DB#454 - Running for President
The acclaimed television series The West Wing showed Josiah Bartlet running for president and ending up as the most prominent Catholic in the White House. But what are the convictions of actor Martin Sheen who played Bartlet?
Link: Fr. Bill Holtzinger’s Pilgrim Cast
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Dear Father Roderick,
A couple of things.
Your exactly right that Ordination Sacerdotalis by Pope John Paul II was not an infallible statement. In 1995 then-Cardinal Ratzinger responded with a Dubium on the matter.
Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.
Responsum: In the affirmative.
This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.
As for the subject of women’s ordination I would refer you to “The Catholic Priesthood and Women: A Guide to the Teaching of the Church” by Sr. Sarah Butler. In 1978 Sr. Butler chaired a task force on women’s ordination for the Catholic Theological Society of America which favored women’s ordination. She later on changed her mind when she reevaluated the arguments used and saw their inherent errors. This book is really excellent since it goes point by point to answer the arguments used in support of women’s ordination. This book addresses theological questions along with arguments from the Fathers of the Church on the subject. This is really the best book on the subject so far and is invaluable since she once held the opposite opinion. I reviewed it here:
http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/008048.php
Now as for Martin Sheen and his award. Unfortunately I have a different view than yours and see him as a typical cafeteria Catholic. He is pro homosexual acts and raised funds for GLBT causes. He also supports same sex marriage.
I am really glad that he is personally pro-life, but his pro-life convictions just are not carried out. He never speaks out or raised funds for pro-life causes and has never participated in the March for Life. He has not spoken out against embryonic stem-cell research and was totally quiet on the murder of Terri Schiavo. He has actively campaigned for pro-abortion presidential candidates like Howard Dean, John Kerry, and Bill Richardson.
While he is part of Democrats for Life his view on abortion is rather weak as shown by this interview.
Q: What are your views on abortion?
Sheen: I cannot make a choice for a women, particularly a black or brown or poor pregnant woman. I would not make a judgment in the case. As a father and a grandfather, I have had experience with children who don’t always come when they are planned, and I have experienced the great joy of God’s presence in my children, so I’m inclined to be against abortion of any life. But I am equally against the death penalty or war– anywhere people are sacrificed for some end justifying a means. I don’t think abortion is a good idea. I personally am opposed to abortion, but I will not judge anybody else’s right in that regard because I am not a woman and I could never face the actual reality of it.
This is morally incoherent and is just like pro-abortion politicians saying they are personally opposed while at the same time voting for abortion. So saying you are pro-life and at the same time supporting politician who will keep abortion legal is certainly mixed up priorities.
Last year he called conservatives “bastards” and “fascists” and has even hinted that he thinks 9/11 was an inside job perpetuated by the government.
It is no surprise the Notre Dame has given him a medal considering that once again Fr. Jenkins the president of the university is allowing performances of the Vagina Monologue to occur on campus. When you can promote a play that is vile and totally against Catholic teaching we can expect a cafeteria Catholic who hates conservatives to get a medal.
Now Martin Sheen has done great work in raising money for retired priests and religious and I certainly applaud his efforts in doing so. It does not balance the fact that he supports intrinsic evil.
I don’t see this in iTunes…..looked twice now…….?
@Jeff: thanks for the extra info, I didn’t know that. I’m afraid there are many, many catholics like Sheen.. Are there any other actors/celebrities with a clearly defined catholic identity?
@Bonita: that’s weird. I downloaded it fine through iTunes. Perhaps you have to refresh your feed?
Thanks, Fr., I got it (sorry, am not very computer savvy but recently given an iPod & really wanted to be able to use it)!
As to Catholic identities and actors, I think the actor Eduardo Verastegui has a great “Catholic conversion” story (even though born & raised Catholic). He and his 2 friends founded Metanoia films & have interesting stories & did a great job with the 2006 movie “Bella”, which I think sometimes was unfortunately billed and maybe dismissed as “just a Christian” or “radical pro-life” movie but was really for all. It demonstrated Christian and pro-life values in a broader sense, without being judgmental or in-your-face. It was a movie to also celebrate positive Latino images/family values-sometimes maybe a little too “sweet” in that regard.. Overall I think it was a very good movie with a positive message about life, redemption, etc…and had a great ending!
Thanks for everything!
Bonita
I believe the fact that girl can not be priests is one that needs to be talked about more on your show. My taking on is that only men can become priests is taken from Jesus is a man along with is disciples but I believe Jesus chose boys because it wasn’t accepted that girls should be in a position of power even religious power. God must have known that the only way for his word to be spoken out would have to be from a man during that time period. But this is the 21st century times our changing and girls should have the right to follow God in the way they please. Less people are becoming priests and it would most likely double if we included woman in the path of priesthood. I plan to turn away also if this does not change by the time I am 18. I disagree that this is not a big reason people are turning away from the catholic religion. While I don’t plan to become a priest I don’t plan on believing in something that treats people on something they can’t control like gender. And God DOES call girls to priesthood!!! That’s not your place to judge whether God does or doesn’t.
I can’t believe how controversial you were on this show! Wow. I was going to say the same thing as Jeff, but I am obviously not as articulate as he is. I knew about the Ordination Sacerdotalis and the Dubium of Cardinal Ratzinger. I went into research mode when I heard that he was elected Pope.
I sent a link to you, Fr. Roderick, and you will notice that the Curt Jester made his appearance in the comments section of the article.
I will say one thing about celebrities with pro-life views. Some of them are terrified about coming out with their beliefs. One famous comedian recently slipped in an interview on a radio show. He mentioned that he abortion was a top issue that influenced his voting. When the host asked him to clarify, the comedian basically said, Well it’s an unpopular view so I don’t want to talk about it. After much pressing by the host (who was also a very good friend of his) the guy gave it up and said, I think abortion is wrong. And he didn’t understand why someone would kill a baby like that. The point I am making is that pro-life actors still want to work and support themselves and their families.
I was paraphrasing above, but I can go back into iTunes and write up a transcript of it. It was fascinating, and I would like to have it for my own personal reference. Hollywood is a tough place to be a devout Catholic. For a place called the City of Angels there are lots of demons who lots of work there.
@Zina, which radio show are you talking about?
How someone can say that abortion is murder and then say they don’t really care when someone aborts a baby is beyond me. That’s like saying “I think killing anyone is totally wrong, but here takes this gun and do it yourself, I don’t really care”, hardly a position that should be applauded in my opinion.
Anywho, I won’t get too political as this is my first time “commenting”.
Great show Father Roderick
I think that what Martin Sheen was saying is that if he wants to vote for a candidate who opposes the death penalty or war, he has to vote for a Pro-Choice candidate. If he votes Pro-Life, then he will very likely get a candidate in favor of the death penalty and possibly one who supports war. There is really no political party in the U.S. that consistently supports the sanctity of life from conception to its natural conclusion, so he chose the one that was most in keeping with his view of Catholic teaching. There was no option that supported them all. Just a thought… I can’t know his heart. And his position on 9-11 infuriates me.
Seven sacraments for men; six for women.
@star,
Your argument that women weren’t made priests by Jesus because of society just doesn’t hold. MOST religions of Jesus’s day had priestesses; and the way Jesus treated women (speaking to them directly, teaching them, choosing them as witnesses to his resurrection) shows that he had no problem shaking up the societal standard toward women.
I believe that men NEED the role of ordained ministry. I believe it is a complementary tole to women’s role as spiritual and natural mothers.
I know that there are women who believe they are experiencing a call to the rodained ministry. But if I believe the Church’s authority and teaching, I can only conclude that these women have misunderstood the nature of their call. It may be that they are being called to full-time Church work.
I haven’t always believed this, and used to be very much in favor of women’s ordination. But the more I studied for myself, rather than going by am emotional reaction of “That can’t be fair!” the more I have come to support the teaching of the Church.
@Naomi,
I have to strongly disaggre with you. I think woman should be able to be more then just mothers they should be able to be a doctor, an engennier, the priesident or a priest. Woman should not be counted out of ANYTHING because of gender. It’s something that that you can’t chose. I have wished a thousand times over just to be a boy. All the advantages they have over woman! I dream about that!!! Is that too much to ask? That is my number 1 wish! Over something I have no control over it at all. Think about that for a while?
@ Star
While I understand your point, I think it’s important to maintain certain traditions and customs of the Church, and not simply change them as the “trend of the day” changes. Like Father Roderick said, just because Women can’t be Priests doesn’t make their position in the Church any less significant, they still have an incredibly important place in the Church.
Also again going back to what Roderick said, it’s not up to the Catholic Church to change religious doctrine as they see fit, they have to follow the religious teachings of Jesus Christ.
And Jesus simply did not give us a precedent with witch we can justify changing our beliefs and traditions in order to allow women in the the Priesthood.
But like I said before, do not question your importance in the Church because of your gender. There will always be an important place for women.
Let’s not forget the great women saints of the Church, such Teresa of Avila (a Doctor of the Church!) and soon to be a saint, Blessed Mother Teresa. And of course, our Blessed Mother Mary, who of all women would have been a priest if it were possible, but Jesus did not choose even her. Yet she is highly regarded as blessed among women.
As Naomi said above, women who feel a calling may really be called to some other vocation such as the religious life as a nun or missionary perhaps.
Fr. Roderick, I love the podcast and look forward to it every day. I’ve been listening for the past couple of months. I also listen to Rosary Army and the Hands and Feet show. Thank you for your work and God bless.
@star - your argument does hold. While there were indeed female priests of other religions at the time, the religious tradition of Jesus was still men-only. Women (and Jesus’ msg) would not have had a chance if they’d been officially in His cohort of disciples. I hope you discover you can stay within the catholic tradition (I’m not a catholic). It has soooo much to offer you. Learning to live with tension (ie. strong disagreements with someone/something we love) is a hard, but maturing, part of life. If you do turn away, bear in mind that there are other options within the broad umbrella of christianity for you.
@jeff - Jesus himself was known to be wily in His responses to people demanding definitive statements, on several occasions. Don’t be too hard on Sheen.
@TK- Seven sacraments… baptism, communion, reconciliation, confirmation, marriage, holy orders, anointing of the sick… I count seven that are gender-neutral. Nuns still go through Holy Orders even if they are not to be ordained priests. Did I miss something?
@Jonmichael:
Holy orders refers only to bishops, priests, and deacons. I used to think it covered men and women religious too, but it doesn’t.
http://catholic.com/library/Bishop_Priest_and_Deacon.asp
Fr Roderick:
A quick comment on your rubber band experiment that you are working on. Is this similar to the “A Complaint Free World” program that was featured on Oprah and several other shows here in America over the last few years? Their website is http://acomplaintfreeworld.org/
I have been listening for about a year and love all your podcasts/videocasts and love all of them. I am inspired by them.
Thank you!
Star: If you were received (by someone) into Holy Orders, marked with the oils of chrism, had hands laid on your head by a bishop, etc. you would not be a priest because the “matter” (your body) was not a male. (Just as a person cannot be baptised with mayonnaise — the matter called for is water.) A woman acting as priest is the same as two men (or two women) acting like they are married. Neither can “consummate” their nuptial union, and both examples will be sterile. A bridegroom must wed “holy mother church” in order to bear spiritual children for the Kingdom. It is a spousal union that reflects the nuptial backdrop to the universe. The vocation of woman is to be an icon of the bride — the Church (Marian, not Petrine) as virgin, bride and mother.
If no one mentored you in femininity in a way you could respect, I am grieved for you, but please take it to the Tabernacle and ask Our Lord why you cannot be at peace with being a woman. I know that many of us have “mother issues” or “father issues” that cloud our ability to receive the graces God has in store for us, but healing is possible. Prayers!
@ Druanna
I think that’s exactly where it comes from.
Correct. I think I mentioned that in the show. But instead of the purple bracelet, I use a 2 cts rubber band. And I use Tim Ferris’ modification of the original idea:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/09/18/real-mind-control-the-21-day-no-complaint-experiment/
Hi Father Roderick,
Thanks for taking the time to address my feedback. I was interested in your comments and look forward to when you will discuss the issue more fully.
I would like to come back to you on two points however.
Firstly you talk of how in the Catholic Church it is the church that calls and any personal vocation has to be conformed by the church. It is, of course, the same in the Anglican church. Though I had a personal call this had to be tested firstly in my parish and when they were sure that it was a genuine call I was then sent to the diocese who journeyed with me over several months of interviews, reading, written assignments etc. When they also confirmed my call I was then sent to a national selection panel who made the final recommendation as to whether I should be accepted for training. Please be in no doubt that though my call was from God it could only proceed through church confirmation.
Secondly, you say that the church has no authority to change things. I am afraid I must disagree with you on this point. The Church has changed its position on many issues over the years a classic example being slavery. The bible says this is ok but the Catholic Church condemned it many years ago. Surely as people of God, we need to be open to the continuing revelation of God and this revelation may include a desire for us to revisit know “truths” to see if they are still Gods will for the world.
You gave a quote at the end of the episode that said that “abortion is advocated only by persons that have themselves been born” well in a similar way the male only priesthood is advocated by a church comprised of men, ie those who have the ability to be priests. You have said so many times how much you love to be a priest, how fulfilled you are in doing so – I just am saddened that such fulfilment is being denied to so many able women of God.