CST# 98: You Want To Cut Off What?!?!
This week, Mac’s getting a day off…to work, we need to pray for the Gulf Coast, we revisit Casino Royale, and talk about a painful topic…circumcision!
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Hello Mac and Katherine,
Some comments:
Were the women at mass really mad or really old?
The Church says: Death penalty optional;Abortion not.
In my opinion, socialized healthcare is against the Catholic understanding of subsidiarity. You had mentioned healthcare around ep 50.
Re: the earth pristine without people; Rainbow Six(book) takes the eco-agenda to the logical end. Dieter Weber is the German sniper on the team. Yes, that was me commenting on iTunes, way back when I just started listening. My first episode was 52, cause you were talking about Transformers! You were right on, but your southern twang really distinguished you from the cu and db. I will admit that it was too much for me, and some time later I picked you up at ep 1. I really appreciate that you keep this show going; it is awesome.
-RepCom1140
Hello… Great ep this week, funny and interesting as ever.
Thought this might also be interesting - the letter from the Conf of Bishops in England and Wales before our last General Election… It was quite controversial at the time if I remember correctly, though I can’t see why reading it now! ….might be a good topic for discussion some time between now and yr elections in November!
Anyways, take care
Helen x
http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/ccb/content/download/2320/16484/file/General%20Election%20Letter%202005.pdf
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ,
The Gospel is radical and challenging. It is a message of salvation. It is a way of life.
It teaches us to value each person: the vulnerable child inside the womb; the parent struggling with the pressures of family life; the person striving to combat poverty; the teacher inspiring students to seek the truth; the stranger fleeing violence and persecution in their homeland; the prisoner in his cell searching for redemption; the child in a distant land claiming the right to a future; and the frail person facing the frontier of death.
At a general election we are asked to think about the kind of world we want to live in. As Catholics, we are called to work for a world shaped by the gospel of Christ.
How you vote is a matter for you alone. Our aim is to suggest some key issues for you to reflect on in the light of Catholic Social Teaching.
Catholic Social Teaching
This teaching is rooted in Scripture and draws from the wisdom of Christian thinkers and Church documents. At its heart is the Common Good. We have a responsibility to each other and a duty to promote and work for a society and a world in which all thrive.
The diversity of our society today can enrich us, but it takes the efforts of all to foster one that is cohesive and characterised by a commitment to equality and respect for the human rights of every person. Political parties, especially at the time of elections, must set an example and avoid appealing to prejudice. Catholics should
never support parties with racist policies.
Our belief as Catholics is that faith and reason always go together. We believe that the truths of the Gospel have implications for how we are to live in society for the good of all, and that we have reasons and arguments to support what we say. Our faith has a public dimension; it cannot remain private if we are to live it as fully as
Christ calls us to do. Catholic Social Teaching provides a way of thinking about the public side of our faith. It helps us all to reflect on the political world in the context of our relationship with God. In our teaching document Cherishing Life, published in 2004, we stated, ‘Voting in a general election should seldom, if ever, be based on a single issue, because elections are concerned with a whole range of issues, very many of which are concerned with
life and human flourishing.’ We have highlighted some particularly important issues – but not the only ones – that we should consider as we decide how to vote. In each case we have suggested a question you may wish to bear in mind.
Regarding circumcision: I am a nurse. I held a baby boy during a circumcision when I was in nursing school. I decided then and there that I would not circumcise any sons I had. Yes, baby boys do heal more quickly than adult men, however, anyone who tells you that it is painless or doesn’t hurt that bad is a liar. This poor little one screamed until he passed out. Anyway…my 2 cents on that. I also heard you mention me on your podcast as having left feedback on i-Tunes. I am pceasmom. P is for my son Peter, C is for my daughter Catherine, E is for my daughter Emma, and A is for my son Armand. You cannot use apostrophes in screen names, so there isn’t one before the s. Just thought I would let you know that it was not a mis-spelling of “peace.” I hope Katherine continues to feel well. I was sick all 9 months of all of my pregnancies.
Be Blessed!
Also regarding circumcision: I am a pre-med student with a father who has a Ph.D. in pathology, and a mother who works in a hospital, and from all the evidence that I have ever found (including the thorough (two 5-inch binders full) research my parents did my brother and I were born), I would have to agree with the American Medical Association that it should not be recommended.
(Warning: this section may be boringly scientific) While there have been studies that state positives to circumcision, there tend to be conflicting results when these studies are duplicated. The studies regarding circumcision and HIV/AIDS that I have seen tend to be suspect, as most are just correlative (i.e. looking at the people who already have HIV/AIDS and seeing which ones have and have not been circumcised) and cannot say for curtain that these men have the disease in part because they have or have not been circumcised. There are also a few theories floating around that there might be a higher chance of HIV/AIDS due to the tissue types of those men who haven’t been circumcised. (End of possible boring science.)
I also do not like the fact that many doctors do not use anesthesia when doing this procedure. In the US, it is not required that the doctor use anesthesia, but it is recommended. It is also important to remember that the foreskin is ATTACHED to the underlying tissue in a baby boy, making it that much MORE painful to the baby when the procedure is being done.
Just some thoughts from a guy’s perspective… although it may come from some bias due to the fact that my father is from Germany, where it is just about unheard of for anyone other than Jews or Muslims to be circumcised.
Just to get it in print here, the official Catholic policy is a big NO to circumcision. Circumcision is specifically denounced in the New Testament (Romans 2:29, Romans 3:30, Acts 15:10, I Corinthians 7:18, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15, Philippians 3:2, Colossians 2:12, Matthew 9:12) and by Cathecism article 2297.
Also, Cantate Domino, a proclamation signed by Pope Eugene IV in 1442 and affirmed by Pope Pius XII in 1952 says “The Holy Roman Church. . .strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.”
Loss of eternal salvation. That’s a big no.
So it’s all over for those who have been circumcised or had a son circumcised? Oh, dear…
I can’t believe that everyone in the US is circumcised. Because it is never done in the UK, the whole discussion feels so weird. I have read that it isn’t necessary to be a christian and presumed that is why christians don’t get it done. Then I hear everyone does it in the States. What is up with that? I also remember seeing a documentary where it went wrong, and the penis got burned off. He was brought up as a girl, but always felt that something was wrong. That really scared me, although I don’t think they still use the same method now. Do you have to pay for it? It is strange to think that if this child was born in the UK, then the conversation would not even come up.
During the Holocaust of WWII, one way to tell whether or not a man was Jewish was to check to see if he was circumcised. It’s my understanding that the idea was circulated here in the US that if every man was circumcised, it could no longer be used as a means of discrimination against Jewish men. So that’s why it’s a common medical procedure for boys at birth in the US. However I understand that more and more parents are opting out these days.
First off, you are welcome for the itunes feedback (I am Mike Ell, as the name Mike L was already taken).
I enjoyed your circumlocution episode. As for the circumcision issue, it’s no skin off my nose whether you do or don’t. Sorry, I had to say it (Mac understands).
I don’t think I am particularly qualified to counsel anyone on matters of church doctrine. So instead, I’ll put in my 2 non-authoritative cents…
If circumcision were always against the moral law, then every parent who circumcised a child would have committed a sin (including Mary and Joseph). After reading 2297, I looked up “mutilate” in the dictionary and found several definitions, like
1. to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts: Vandals mutilated the painting.
2. to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.
I don’t think definition #2 applies (it is not a limb or essential part). As for definition #1, would you consider a circumcised man to be “injured” “disfigured” or “imperfect”? Would you consider a child with pierced ears to have been “injured” “disfigured” or “imperfect” (that’s another thing I’ve seen people do to infants)?
I’m not claiming that my thoughts above are a correct interpretation, and I do see how it can be read as forbidding it. So I guess I’m really no help at all.
At any rate, I appreciate and respect that you are putting so much thought into the decision, as well as the responses and advice you have gotten.
I would recommend in addition to what you have already done you do three things, if you haven’t already. 1) Pray on it 2) Talk to a priest and 3) perhaps ask Catholic Answers.
Thanks again for a great podcast (as usual), and God bless.
^^ I don’t think definition #2 applies ({foreskin} is not a limb or essential part). ^^
Then we disagree. Since the foreskin includes over half the sensual nerve endings, provides a unique frictionless rolling and gliding mode of stimulation for a man and his partner, and protects the glans and mucosa from drying and abrasion, I consider it quite essential. At the very least, since no national medical association on earth endorses routine circumcision, it’s owner is the one who should make that call, no?
^^ As for definition #1, would you consider a circumcised man to be “injured” “disfigured” or “imperfect”? ^^
Yes, I would. He has had about 15 square inches of surface removed from a part of his body he probably treasures.
^^ Would you consider a child with pierced ears to have been “injured” “disfigured” or “imperfect” ^^
Piercing a child is different from amputating a very sensitive body part, but I wouldn’t do either to a child before they were able to weigh in on the choice. Any ethicist will tell you, absent an emergency proxy consent for irreversible body modifications is not called for.
^^ Talk to a priest ^^
Discuss Romans 2:29, Romans 3:30, Acts 15:10, I Corinthians 7:18, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15, Philippians 3:2, Colossians 2:12, and Matthew 9:12.
And be aware that many priests are not aware of the Papal Edict cited above (which was not in effect at the time of Mary and Joseph). 95% of the world’s Christians do not circumcise. Only the US does so routinely for most infants. The Philippines and South Korea have a high cutting rate among Christians, but it’s done mostly in adolescence.
Here is my husband nonsensical, but irrefutable statement on circumcision:
“It was good enough for Jesus - it is good enough for you.”