Daily Breakfast 534 - Comfort Food
Today: Women ordinations? Why the Church thinks it’s time to move on; movie preview: James Bond Quantum of Solace; Olympic feedback - Chinese culture during the Olympics; comfort food: from Dutch apple pie to Belgian waffles and Italian sandwiches.
Link: Golden Rule News website
Seems like this idea of women being ordained for the first 1200 years comes from some book written by a professor at Santa Clara University. Has this been formally refuted? Seems like a Holy Blood, Holy Grail type of book.
I have read some of the responses to why women can’t be priests… I even heard Jennifer’s answer in a Rosary Army Q&A podcast. The problem with these answers is that they do not carry any weight when arguing with a non-Catholic feminist. They say that the fact that no apostles were women has more to do with the cultural restrictions of the day… that no Jewish men would not accept a woman as a priest. The second argument, that the church acknowledges that the two genders are different and have different gifts and responsibilities in the church, would be summarily rejected by a modern feminist as no excuse for keeping women out of “religious management” positions. Any other angles I could use to help support the church’s position on this the next time I engage in one of these discussions, specifically with someone hostile to Catholicism and patriarchal hierarchies?
Jomichael,
I know that these arguments won’t persuade a modern day non-catholic feminist. My mom is one, I was raised with the progressive socialist conceptions about womanhood. But I don’t think the Church aimes to reach that group. Modern day non-Catholic women aren’t the ones being ‘ordained’ as ‘priests’. Catholic women are and the persons ‘ordaining’ them call themselves Catholic priests. So if they adopt Catholicism and confess that in public, you can show them why women cannot be priests.
I really don’t care what modern day feminists think. I don’t care if they disagree. Everybody has the right to adhere to one’s own believes. I do care about Catholics adopting these kinds of opinions, because those opinions aren’t Catholic and in the core they even are not Christian.
The core problem with this kind of feminism is that it shifts one’s attitude from obeying God and trying to do what God wants from us (obedience) to doing what you want yourself and using God as a vehicle to get it your way. That’s not obedience, that’s revolting against God. Which is much more serious for a Christian then for a non-believing feminist. That latter doesn’t know what (s)he is doing.
I thought God (in the form of Jesus) gave Peter the power to make rules on Earth.
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” - Matthew 16:19
If so, why can’t his successor change the rules regarding who is capable of becoming a priest? If not, what power does this give the pope?
Christopher–
You ask loaded questions. The implication behind your questions is that ordination of women is a good thing, a positive thing.
Even if the pope COULD allow women’s ordination–and I’m not saying that he could–it doesn’t mean that he SHOULD allow it.
The sacrament of holy orders is a privilege, not a right–and not even a privilege bestowed upon all men. In this, I respect the wisdom and follow the guidance of the successor of Peter.
But Father Roderick seemed to be saying that the pope could not allow it. I’m wondering how the limits of what the pope can do are defined.
There are married priests practising in the Roman Catholic church (I’ve been at a mass celebrated by one), so obviously celibacy is a rule that can be varied.
Ironically, the priest I met was a former Anglican priest who left the Church of England because he did not agree with its practice of ordaining women priests!
If anyone wants to read more, here’s a link to a document that discusses women ordained as priests in the early years of Church history:
http://www.romancatholicwomenpriests.org/RCWP_Resource.pdf
Well said Jeff.
Really inspiring answer.
Regards
Ok! I’m switching the thread of this discussion.
Peanut butter, honey, and banana sandwiches. Gross? Maybe, but it’s my comfort food.
Now back to the thread:
And to expand on what Inge posted. I find that what many of these poor women that insist on being ordained oblivious to the danger they are bringing upon their souls, just want something to rebel against. It would be so easy to become a pastor/minister/preacher in any other Christian denomination, but then they would not be rebelling against anything. I find that more than living by their convictions they simply want to rattle other people’s.
Peace of Christ,
Marnie
Marnie,
It would be so easy to become a pastor/minister/preacher in any other Christian denomination, but then they would not be rebelling against anything. I find that more than living by their convictions they simply want to rattle other people’s.
I have this same opinion on gay men that want to be open about their homosexuality and be a priest at the same time and believe the Church should just accept this because they want to be a priest!!
Adrianne
Comfort food: Chinese food (American style-Chinese), especially the bright-red strips of barbecued pork; teriyaki anything; marshmallows; ginger snaps.
Why can’t the Pope change a church teaching? Because he cannot contradict what God has given. He can’t make water dry or people grow younger, or snow fall up, either.
I simply don’t believe that Jesus didn’t ordain women because they wouldn’t have been accepted, This is the same Jesus that spoke to the Samaritan woman alone (a social taboo), and watched his followers walk away after declaring his flesh is true food. The evidence of his life doesn’t show that he would have backed away from something “shocking” or “not done.”
Just in case I had too many “not”s in there, let me be clear. Jesus ordained men because that’s what he saw as best (with perfect and divine knowledge) and wanted us to do, not because of his culture or his earthly era, or his hair color or the length of his left thumb!
Jesus has said, “”You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you. Rather, whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave. Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25 and in the other gospels)
He has also said, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.” (Matthew 16:24)
Those women who want to becoming priests so that they would have equal power as men in the Church (the Kingdom of God) are seriously mistaken. Those who think that their wants should become reality just because they desire them are also seriously mistaken. How could they even imagine that they can lead a flock?
I have a wonderful priest at my current parish who is in his 70’s. But, every time I go to my grandmother’s memorial mass at her old parish — I look at the Pastoral Associate, a sister who not only is clearly the most competent person at mass in organizing, managing the mass (and probably all related activities in that parish) but there is no question that she would be the one I would go to for pastoral advice in that parish. Unfortunately with so few priests around, so many of those left are in their 80’s or who aren’t particularly personable or accessible to their parish. This women is someone I would respect as a priest. And I have to believe that there are many more like her. I just fail to see how this won’t happen someday.
Kathy–
Your argument is the exact same one used by advocates of same-sex “marriage”: So many bad marriages, so many nice homosexuals…”I just fail to see how this is wrong.” Is this indeed how you feel?
An equal counterargument would be that two wrongs do not make a right–rather, instead of allowing the latter, the correct solution would be to strengthen the former.
If the Magesterium seeks to ordain women, who are we to argue with it? It would not be a step taken either lightly or hastily, and so if it were done so I would welcome the change as one directed by God through the Holy Spirit.
I hope Father Roderick addresses the question of the limits of the pope’s power, given that Peter was handed the keys of Heaven. Whether or not the pope should allow women priests, I would like to know why he could not. It appears that some rules are considered absolute, but others can be changed. How are they distinguished?
I am inclined to favour women priests, but don’t seek to force it on the Church. I don’t know enough about the arguments.
By the way Jeff, two wrongs might not make a right, but three lefts do!
Christopher - I agree with you and would like a better understanding of why some some rules are absolute and others not. I thought Jesus wanted us to focus on what connects people together, work through our divisions and treat each other fairly and with generosity.
Jeff - I have changed my positions over the past 5 years and I feel my current positions are more in keeping with Jesus’ teachings. Hate has no place in church. Homosexuals should be welcomed as equals not vilified. I wish that the catholic church did not inflict so much pain by enforcing these divisions.
Hi, Kathy. Please check out this report, Homosexual U.K. Documentarian Says Gay Lifestyle a “Sewer” of Casual Degrading Sex, Drug Abuse and Misery.
“A British homosexual journalist admits that his documentary on the London gay scene is likely to “burn every bridge in the gay world I’ve got.”Simon Fanshawe is a writer and broadcaster who created the documentary “The Trouble With Gay Men” after becoming increasingly alarmed at the shallowness and destructiveness of the “gay lifestyle.” The film, made for BBC 3 television, questions the emotional and psychological immaturity, narcissism, nihilism and self-destructive tendencies of many in the homosexual community. Fanshawe says he wants homosexual men to “grow up” and get beyond their state of “extended adolescence.””